Curse

arcanemacabre · Feb 27, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

I agree completely, Ensign. The bosses need to be the focus of PvE mobs. In fact, it might be good to take a page from Diablo 2 and have occasional "Champion" mobs - a group of 3-4 boss-like monsters, not as powerful as bosses, but much more powerful than normal mobs.

Also, I've often advocated a range in AI. Depending on the type of mob, and their level, shapes the difficulty and type of AI they have. This was somewhat implemented when Nightfall came out, with human groups like Kournans tend to kite and actually have formations of frontline/midline/backline, whereas the plants aren't as intelligent.

This could be taken a step further making the Bosses super-intelligent, as in above and beyond heros/henchies, and giving them a primary and secondary class setup with 8 skills. The "champion" groups could also have primary and secondary classes, with perhaps normal mobs remaining as they are.

More of the intelligent/tougher mobs in smaller groups, even interwoven with typical large, dumb mobs, would instantly make the Mesmer a needed teammate. I would happily welcome this, as opposed to re-working skills.

Personette · Feb 27, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

I think GrimWizard has it - so many of the best spells mesmers have are so focused that if you want to play an area effectively you either have to know it well, or read a few walkthroughs to have a good idea who your opponents are, and you have to shift your build constantly.

I also think the idea of multiiplying casting times & reducing energy costs is a brilliant idea.

I was kind of shocked when I first realized that mesmers are regarded as second-class citizens in the game. My first character was a mesmer, and when I started playing through with other characters I was struck by a sense of constant helplessness. Yes, it's satisfying to plow into a mob and beat monsters up, and it it was kind of a relief to throw a ball of fire at something instead of working through a whole strategy...but I kept thinking, "Ack, I can't DO anything to stop this monster from doing X or Y, why can't I just stop him instead of beating him over the head repeatedly?!?!?"

Incidentally, I'll just throw my hat in with the people who say that PvE mesmers have to hit multiple targets simultaneously and can't focus for very long on a single one, and the people who say that chaos storm sucks, which it really does. The monsters run away from AoE spells like chaos storm.

Mind you, I'm still a noob, so...

Shady79 · Feb 27, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by deppworthy

Ok. I'm sick of every other mesmer on here saying "people don't understand the powa of da mesma." Wake up. Yes, they understand. It's not that mesmers are actually BAD in PvE, it's just that they aren't as good as the other classes. Sure, you can shut down a high damage or healer boss. Sure, you can degen a handful of mobs and wait around for them to die. Or, you can take your bonded tank, round up a bunch of targets and have a nuker do their thing. Have a guess at which is faster and works better for all but a very few select cases in the game.

Look at the end-game areas like DoA. Look at the builds being used there: monks and eles, usually a necro, sometimes a warrior (ele is a better tank there btw). Again, it's not that mesmers CAN'T do these areas, it's just that they're not as good as the other classes.

Now, the real issue is not "why do mesmers suck in PvE," it's "why do mesmer primaries suck in PvE?" The answer: Fast Casting. Look at the only gains for being a primary mesmer:
Fast Casting
Runes and stat bonuses
Item bonuses
(pretty armor, hot bods, yadda yadda)

Fast Casting SUCKS in PvE. There's just no point to it. If there's a mesmer boss out there, it's going to interrupt your spells whether or not they cast in half the time. Mantra of Recovery is a great skill, but it works just fine with 0 Fast Casting. ANY other primary attrib is better.

Attrib bonuses? Eh. Yeah, it's nice to get Domination to 16, but as stated earlier, it pales in comparison with Fire Magic 16, or Curses 16. Illusion/Inspiration work fine with single digit attrib scores.

Item bonuses? +1 to attrib? See above. 20% faster cast time? See Fast Casting. 20% recharge? Yeah, might be nice to spam some mantras or dom skills, or your precious degens and interrupts if you don't run out of energy first, but it pays off more to spam SS or SF.

In short, mesmer is SECOND CLASS in PvE. Want to make them better primaries in PvE? Change Fast Casting. The secret is: it'll never happen. Anything else just morphs them into a class that already exists.

And yes, I have a mez who's been everywhere, done everything, and has nice expensive armor. I still don't see them being a power PvE class.

quote of the year. thanks for your post. exactly my opinion.

Pakana · Feb 27, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimWizard

Why is that the longest casting spells are not mesmer skills?! I say cut all the Energy costs of Mesmer skills in half and DOUBLE all their casting times (Maybe that is a bit too general, but for most Mesmer skills it should work out) That way using Mesmer skills has an advantage when being used by mesmers, just like all the other classes do.

It should be the casting time of other professions doubled, not mesmer. As it is, no matter how much your fast casting is, it's pretty damn hard to react in time on spells or skills the foe uses. That's what renders fast casting useless!

NeHoMaR · Feb 27, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I am sure I can "redesign" an explorable area or mission in a way you CAN'T go without a mesmer in your team. Do you play Heroes' Battles? Heroes are mobs, yeah, just mobs with the attributes, armor, weapon and skills of a player, with improved AI. Imagine a PvE area full of "like heroes" mobs; You couldn't win with a damage only build. Of course, you will start to see threads of people whining, like people whining about Factions that has by far the best mobs configuration of 3 campaigns.

Wildi · Feb 27, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

The main problem is the lack of ability to take on several targets.

Holy damage deals double damage to undead creatures, Chaos damage skills (or lets say mesmer skills instead?) should affect one target + 1 adjacent monster (monster only, would not affect pvp)

MSecorsky · Feb 27, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

This really is a strange topic... it should be obvious that it's perspective based. Sadly, the larger perspective seems to have the opinion of mesmers not having PvE value. The real reason for this, in my tounge-in-cheek opinion, VISUALS.

With Prophecies and Factions, mesmers skills have no visual effects whatsoever. Let's face it... when an elementalist kills things, they die most dramatically in an envelope of fire or the like. Warriors hack and slash, assassins deal a dancing death. Every other class has some form of visual death inducing deliver, be it spirits, arrows, minions, etc.

What does a mesmer do? Points his/her finger and something suddenly can't cast. Flick the wrist, something dies. Sadly, the warrior or ele will take credit for the kill, but the mesmer simply nods and moves on to the next target. No fanfare, no exploding heads, nothing.

It's funny... when some of the Nightfall skills introduced visual effects, I was a bit disappointed. How DARE they show the enemy what I'm up to! I felt exposed. Naked. But it's a catch 22... if mesmers had more visual effects people would see thier power in action, but it would cheapen a most cerebral class.

So, in a nutshell, to make mesmers more wanted by the lesser intelligencia, we need visuals. But let's not go for the cheap theatrics of the elementalist or barbaric slashing of a warrior... let's go for more subtle yet noticable effects. Blood trickling from the eyes and ears of the enemy. Animated screams of pain from the foe as they battle within from the mesmers effects. The foe falling to their knees in pain as they beg mercy.

THEN, the mesmer would be truly appreciated whilst our dignity and sophistication in battle remain intact and un-tinged.

Ferret · Feb 27, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Chaos Storm has always had a visual

MSecorsky · Feb 27, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferret

Chaos Storm has always had a visual

But this is exactly why the truly sophisticated mesmer shuns it. Far too much flash for so little efficiency.

GrimWizard · Feb 27, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakana

It should be the casting time of other professions doubled, not mesmer. As it is, no matter how much your fast casting is, it's pretty damn hard to react in time on spells or skills the foe uses. That's what renders fast casting useless!

So, we should make all the other classes worse to make mesmers better?! Wow, that made no sense at all.

All Interrupts have a casting time of 1/4. Exactly, how much faster can they get?! Fast Casting is not made to Interrupt it's made to Cast Spells Faster, But since most spells are not more effective when cast faster than normal there is no value in it.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 27, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

All mesmers need is some group support option.
Every class can support the group in a way.
The mesmers support so far comes from disabling an enemy, but in PVE that doesn't last long enough to make much of a difference. And a disabled enemy isn't something that the group notices as a contribution.
Just a different type of group support is all, whether it be energy buffs for an ally or the group or fast casting buffs.

milias · Feb 27, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

I think Mesmer needs more AoE spells, which doesn't really affect PvP, but would be very useful in PvE.

Pakana · Feb 27, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimWizard

So, we should make all the other classes worse to make mesmers better?! Wow, that made no sense at all.

All Interrupts have a casting time of 1/4. Exactly, how much faster can they get?!

Maybe you didn't get it? The point wasn't to get your interrupt spells faster. The point was, if the spells and skills of other professions were slower, you could interrupt those. At the moment it doesn't matter how much your fast casting is, when skills and spells of your foes are 1 second or faster (and with 20% reduced casting time mods), you can't interfere no matter what! If their spells had over 1 second casting time, then you'd have chances, and casting faster would start to make sense. Now it doesn't make sense, since you can't interfere anyway. Earlier the spells were slower. But now everything is so fast paced.

Those who say mesmers should tab around enemies, surely cannot use interrupt skills! The spells you can interfere with tabbing enemies back and forth, must take several seconds to cast. Otherwise you have no chance in hell to be so lucky to tab to the right enemy at the right moment! (Sure, you can shut down one and tab to the next. But that's not tabbing between enemies).

As it is, that spells of your enemies have so short casting times today, fast casting has become less and less useful.

Melisande · Feb 27, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

In my experience, the problem with PvE mesmers isn't that they don't have enough damage, it's that they tend to get killed very easily if they're good and try to be flexible against all types of enemies.

Why is this? This is because for all of their spell interrupts, they need to be within casting range of the enemy casters. And to be able to get that close to them, they're up next to the warriors tanking the melee monsters. So when that happens, the melee monsters notice a squishier target and switch to the mesmer, while the caster notices that it's taking a lot of damage from the mesmer and *also* switches target. What do we get? A quick way for mesmers to die. They don't have enough self-healing/defense spells to be able to handle all that aggro.

This is probably why people think rangers are better interrupters in general. They can use a longbow that puts them beyond the range of enemy casters (and melee-ers) but still lets them interrupt, PLUS they have more armor much and better self-healing/defense skills.

So to fix this problem, my suggestion is to change the monster AI so that mesmers have a lower priority. Even if they're up there next to the warriors, make it so that the melee monsters won't shift aggro unless the mesmer is actually targeting/doing damage to them. This wouldn't change PvP at all *and* it would also make it much easier for mesmers to maintain their energy pools in PvE (channeling, anyone?).

Puebert · Feb 27, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Added "More Visual skill effects" to Possible Ideas.

Thank you everyone for replying.

It seems like the biggest problems are; the lack of AoE skills, lack of party assistance skills, visual effects, and enemy stupidity.

Keep the ideas coming.

HolyHawk · Feb 27, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by milias

I think Mesmer needs more AoE spells, which doesn't really affect PvP, but would be very useful in PvE.

I'm not so sure if that situation can happen. Spiritual pain was really a pain in pvp, due to its spike potential. I still think the problem is not the mesmer alone, but the pve mobs and skill sets. Making them able to last longer with a full bar (just an idea) would possibly encourage denial and shutdown, which mesmers would fit well. Right now all you need is damage potency, so aoe is more than enough. Fit in mobs with recovery, blind, wards, amoung other skills and the triad of war/ele or necro /monk will see some variety. I remember going in Ring of Fire and spending 40 minutes trying to kill Covertina the Matron with my ele, and when I had my mesmer she went down so fast; the paladins were kinda surprised (orly).

Just keep in mind that mesmers are not the only classes that suffer in pve. Imo, rangers are in the same place as mesmers, underrated. Rts are scarse but they can provide healing and now spike efficiently. Assassins are just meant for a 1x1, it's the class' identity, so I don't think they are too secluded. Paragons can still provide support, even after the nerfs, but they tend to be.. boring. Dervishes are mostly those dumb Balthazar avatar, but they can blend in rather easilly. The enviroment needs some work, so they motivate some classes to shine more in some areas. Changing skills is delicate because it has direct impact on game balance, and immediate effect on the pvp. This "mesmer issue" must be addressed very carefully, so let's keep coming up with more ideas.

baddog992 · Feb 27, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

I find the first part of nightfall to be hard until you get past the hunger then its a breeze. I never realy needed to use a pick up group as I could do all missions with henchies and heros, I only did pug because its boring with all henchies.A good mesmer should be able to take out almost any enemy in no time flat, the other half is mostly spellcasters so there easy to kill with backfire and heavy degen. its almost a joke, the trouble with mesmers killing stuff is the group never sees it happen they just know its a lot easier with one. Pugs, IQ tends to be on the low side, no offense to anyone I do pug all the time, but ya, mesmers are deadly but no one see it happen.

seut · Feb 27, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Inspiration is probably the most nerfed attribute line in GW's history. Unfortunately it's supposed to be the main energy source for mesmer. Adding some kind of expertise effect for interrupts & hexes to the primary mesmer attribute would be helpful.

Kook~NBK~ · Feb 27, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melisande

In my experience, the problem with PvE mesmers isn't that they don't have enough damage, it's that they tend to get killed very easily if they're good and try to be flexible against all types of enemies.

Why is this? This is because for all of their spell interrupts, they need to be within casting range of the enemy casters. And to be able to get that close to them, they're up next to the warriors tanking the melee monsters. So when that happens, the melee monsters notice a squishier target and switch to the mesmer, while the caster notices that it's taking a lot of damage from the mesmer and *also* switches target. What do we get? A quick way for mesmers to die. They don't have enough self-healing/defense spells to be able to handle all that aggro.

This is probably why people think rangers are better interrupters in general. They can use a longbow that puts them beyond the range of enemy casters (and melee-ers) but still lets them interrupt, PLUS they have more armor much and better self-healing/defense skills.

So to fix this problem, my suggestion is to change the monster AI so that mesmers have a lower priority. Even if they're up there next to the warriors, make it so that the melee monsters won't shift aggro unless the mesmer is actually targeting/doing damage to them. This wouldn't change PvP at all *and* it would also make it much easier for mesmers to maintain their energy pools in PvE (channeling, anyone?).

Kiting is a great strategy for Mesmers to use when tackling those pesky monks and necros that stay in the back of the opposing mobs. Get in, get your spell off, and get the heck outta there!

GrimWizard · Feb 28, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakana

Maybe you didn't get it? The point wasn't to get your interrupt spells faster. The point was, if the spells and skills of other professions were slower, you could interrupt those. At the moment it doesn't matter how much your fast casting is, when skills and spells of your foes are 1 second or faster (and with 20% reduced casting time mods), you can't interfere no matter what! If their spells had over 1 second casting time, then you'd have chances, and casting faster would start to make sense. Now it doesn't make sense, since you can't interfere anyway. Earlier the spells were slower. But now everything is so fast paced.

Your Entire Arguement is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. I guess i'll just have to simplify.

Mesmers already have skills that lengthen casting times of opponents. Ever heard of Arcane Conundrum? What about Migrain? I guess not. There is no need to naturally increase casting times of other classes' spells. These skills haven't saved the mesmer. The simple fact is a Mesmer's strength does not come from their interrupts. Every class can interrupt infact I would have to say that Rangers make the best interrupters.